Touchstone Talks: EP 1 - The Ups and Downs Owners Face

and they're utilizing some AI technology.

I know that's an overused.

It is it is used a lot these days.

I don't want to overuse it,
but I do think, well,

you guys were kind of on the crux of that
anyway.

We were using the latest technology,
and it was funny because when we closed,

it seemed like that's when I exploded.

That's true.

It was almost exactly right after.

That's true.

So in one way, we're happy
because you didn't have to do that.

Got one level of technology.

But but everyone is using it,
I don't know.

Yeah, we see it.

Results.

You now have the AI the whole
the whole. Yep.

They summarized all the search. Yeah.

It's getting better every day,

but it's probably not perfect right
now. And I sort of

had some results where I scratch my head
and said, this doesn't work.

Why is this here?

Yeah.

But, but yeah.

So that's a very good.

That's good.

Everything seems to be going well.

Excellent, excellent. Okay.

So if you're just joining us, we're
sitting here with, Cosmo, who is joining

Touchstone Talks today to talk about
his Experian exiting, for our promos.

He's a client with touchstone,

and we worked with him
to find a partnership to take his business

to the next level
and let him head off to retirement.

I still hate that word.

So I heard a great word.

And you tell me if you like
this one better.

It's called pre-retirement.

Okay.

So younger. It is. It does.

The idea is that it's not

sitting on your couch all day. It's.

It's before that, it's the.

What did I not get to do that
I want to do now?

Marty.

And that was my one of my concerns.

We're going to see if we're going to be
free to do whatever we wanted every day.

And in the first week or two, I'll tell
anyone is just chaotic.

You're nervous, you don't know what to do.

So just just go with it and stay busy.

But eventually the dust settles
and you kind of find

a rhythm, and it's a different rhythm
than working every day.

But you find what that rhythm needs to be.

And I agree,
you need to have stuff to do. Yeah.

It can't just be getting up,
doing exercises

and then maybe reading a book
and yeah, made a point not to read

too many books because I could go 3
or 4 hours a day with the book.

Okay. And sitting out on a couch.

So, you know, I tried not to do that,
at least not during the day.

Okay, okay. That's a good circle.

Yeah, I

was sitting at a,

showcase, and there was a panel, and,
the gentleman that was speaking

was, retirement coach, and he goes,
I don't like the word retirement.

And I'm like,

I don't like the word retirement either.

So. So.

Right, right.

Well, I think about,

you know, long walks on the beach
and twiddling your thumbs, right?

Like, that's that's what hits my head.

So many times.

Exactly, exactly.

And I think volunteering
is a big part of it and.

Your time with your family and traveling.

Yeah.

Those are all the kind of things
that we've tried to

do as we have more free time.

Yeah I get that, I get that the
the panelists that were there,

one of them was in Divinity school

and one of them had

started a nonprofit,
and one of them had written three books.

So considerations for Other Ways
to include Books.

I was like, that is not my definition.

That is, that is a more realistic view on

what would likely happen
if I were to exit my job.

I, I don't think you'd want to read
any books that I write.

I'm not.

I'm not a writer, but I have.

My wife is terrific at it.

But but for me, I would always sort of
joke my would you are all bullet points.

Very clear, very concise,
but technical writing

is an entire field, honestly.

So so if you ever get really important,

you can go
write some instruction manuals for us.

But it's good to have a list.

So. So that's, you know, that's.

I guess that's important.

If you only honestly took a couple weeks
to get a new rhythm, I think you did it

quite well.

Yeah.
Maybe it's more like a month or two.

I think what I like,
and I always tell the story,

I think a week or two after we sold
in the dust, it kind of started to settle,

and we weren't going to the office
that much is what I sort of

would come down and say, okay,
what am I going to do today?

So I, I need to fill my day.

So my, my wife has, a theater
production company, and she had a website

that's been sitting there for ten years.

And I said, oh,
it's time to give her a new website.

So I spent the next month.

There you go.

Working on a new website,
including some video

from past performances and and every day
I'd go down there like a job.

Yeah.

And so once I got that out of my system,
I could sort of let go and sort of,

you know, ease into it. Yeah.

That was your retirement plan.

I would say check the box.

Exactly.

Excellent.

Well, let's rewind time a little bit.

A lot of our viewers
are going to be business owners

who are going to be in the same spot
that you were.

Worried about
what does retirement look like?

But still going.

Okay, well, but maybe I do want to exit.

So what made you
decide it was time to exit?

So I think it's a process.

I don't think it's any one data point.

And and,

I own four hour promos with the, partner
Tim Raymond.

And Tim,

had a clearer mind
about wanting to retire,

and I teased him a lot about it
ahead of a tease.

Well, we teased him during it and we.

Exactly.

But it was helpful for me.

I think I needed that little nudge okay.

So that it was time
and we started early as you remember.

Yep. Pre-COVID.

Right.

Had initial conversations
with with with you and Jeff

Ridge and

once Covid hit we had to sort of
put it on the back burner.

Right.

So we have had a lot of time
to sort of process it.

And I think for me,

along with Tim's help,
I came to the realization

that there's certainly
a lot of growth left in for our promos.

But I didn't have the
the fire in the belly

as they used to seem
to want to bring it there.

Okay.

And once I realized that,
I knew it was in the best interest

of everybody to step aside
and have someone else do it.

And and so,

a year and a half later, sitting here,
it's very clear to me going through it.

It's not at all. It's fuzzy.

Okay.

Where your second guessing, days
where you want to backtrack.

But but I think overall, the fact
that I knew I didn't

have the same desire that I had ten years
earlier.

Made it clear that, you know,
I had to step aside and that was a good.

Yeah. Well, and you guys

bought the company

which is something else
that, you know, we work with people on.

That's kind of an unusual situation.

How did that process.

So that was probably close
to 20 years ago, right

when we found ourselves,
wanting to run another business

and we stumbled
upon the e-commerce sector.

And so that's probably 2004, 2005.

It's still relatively new.

Google is still Google,
but it's not the Google that it is today.

And so we kept looking for e-commerce
companies and,

and we eventually stumbled on one,
within the promotional products industry.

We knew nothing about the products
industry, but we liked e-commerce

and so we bought a small
we sort of say a show of a company.

It wasn't named for all promos.

It had a website that was very clunky
and we really got into the

innards of it.

It really wasn't e-commerce,

but that was okay with us
because it gave us the, the framework.

The network of suppliers.

Right.

We immediately got introduced
into the industry.

That probably would have taken a couple of
years for us to figure out on their own.

And then within a year, about a year,

we launched for all promos and

started on pay per click

and that's, that's another sort of,

yeah, story that was somewhat random,

not planned out, but,
you know, pay per click was random for us.

Really, we started for our promos thinking
that we were going to, have a catalog,

full 20 page catalog and do direct mail.

Okay.

And so we were working
on developing the catalog at the same time

that we started pay per click,
because we were certainly aware of it. And

over time.

And not a long period of time
maybe a couple of months.

We realized the economics of paper

were so much better than, than catalog
mailings,

printing, mailing postage,
the response rates, the lack of control.

So we never even got the first catalog
off the ground.

We just shelved it.

Oh okay.

Pay per click.

And I can remember the first month
where it was,

all in on pay per click, I forget exactly.

I do know how much we spent,
but the results were disastrous.

Oh. Oh, no.

No. Okay. Trial and error.

You know, as the months unfolded,
we got smarter and better, and.

And we just stuck to it.

You know, and I think that's for me,
I think if I can give anyone any advice,

if you're starting a company or
if you're in an entrepreneurial situation,

just never give up.

Just keep you know, don't listen
to other people if you think you're right.

Make your changes.

But just keep at it.

Just just never give up.

That's that's excellent. Yeah.

So that's how it started.

Yeah.

And and, you know, we had a lot of,

input, both requested
and not requested for us.

The in the industry 20 years ago.

There was a lot of talk
about the e-commerce companies,

of which we were one,

just not not sustainable,

the industry
not sustainable because the industry,

some folks within the industry,
20 years ago, thought that,

you had to meet with your customers
face to face.

You had to show them the merchandise and,

touch, feel and feel and,
and the e-commerce

sector
was just never going to be successful.

We said, okay, but we stayed on our way.

We did.

And then once we were,

we got our feet on the ground and we were,
we saw some success.

We heard from everyone in the e-commerce
space.

Don't build your company
just on pay per click.

You know build it on
multiple fact factors.

It makes perfect sense right.

Right. Diversification.

It's everybody's right.
Everybody wants you to diversify.

And and ultimately we got there.

But we took a lot longer than I think
anyone would have recommended

we take
because we were in complete control of it.

Yeah.

We could decide how much to spend.

And we got results every day.

And we were able to react
on those results.

And, and for us in those early days

where cash wasn't in abundance.

We had to be sure that whatever we were
going to invest in, we needed to pay back.

And when we looked at our organic traffic,

it's a much more long term view.

Okay. So we didn't have the luxury.

No. You need somebody ready to buy.

Yes. So?

So initially we
we stuck with pay per click.

We did not diversify.

But then over the years.

Yeah.

Well, I remember we'd already started
talking when you started doing the email.

Email?

Yeah. Email marketing. You were.

That was relatively new.

And you were talking to new companies.

And that was which I guess
is kind of an important thing

to think about, that I don't know that
all of our owners think about.

Right.

Even though you're planning to sell,
and it doesn't mean you stop growing.

Right.

Like you can't just I'm going to sell now.

So now I can, you know,
not worry about those anymore.

You have to. Correct.

Correct.

We we felt it when Tim and I
would be sitting there in the middle.

And knowing that,
you know, the year before we went out into

the market
was the, everyone's going to look at

and suddenly we look
Tim and I looked at each item.

So for 15 years

you know we didn't worry about it
as much as we're worrying about it now.

Yeah.

Because if we missed,

it was just Tim and I missing and we said,
okay, we'll do better next year.

But now it was important to us. Yeah.

And and so yeah.

No absolutely I think
and unfortunately it's going

to be the most stressful as you
go just before you go.

Right.

I mean oh absolutely.

Every month. Where's your team.

What does he Tim. Now.

What's our team forecast. Yeah.

Was good.

And then you worry.

At least we did.

We were very conscious of what we said
because we didn't want to.

We don't want to over promise.
And we didn't want to.

We wanted to be as realistic as possible,
without hurting ourselves.

Right? Right.

It is a balance through.

And as you may recall, we were going
through tremendous growth in that year.

Yeah.

Selling, which was great.

On the front end.

But we've had a lot of it's right.

Couldn't handle all the orders coming in.

And then we couldn't
get back to the customers.

Something that was always so important
to us was making sure

that the customer was happy
and that you got the answers right away.

Suddenly we were we were in this situation
where we couldn't

sustain the customer levels
that we wanted to.

And so yeah, but that was
that was a reality.

And we owned up to it.

Oh yeah. No, it was a bubble.

And we had a they you know, part
of diligence is they review everything.

So they were on your Google reviews
and they were spot.

Why is this review say this.
What happened here.

So we we we would just open about.

Yeah. This is the way it is.

And so, you know, in some respects
it was an opportunity because,

because they, they could do a lot better
in a year or two.

And so yeah, unfortunately

I wish I could say it's, it's an easy it's
you made it as easy as possible.

But it was it's a it's stressful.

It is a stressful process.

But so was operating the company.

Yeah. Right.

Like, entrepreneurship
doesn't come without stress.

So people that have started
and operated a business, I think are

are a very

precise human being and persistent. Yes.

I think it that's a key is and,

in the early years
it was extremely stressful.

Because one mistake
could be the end of the company.

Right.

And Tim and I realized
that we didn't always we, we,

we tried to shelter the employees from it
because that wasn't their problem.

Their problem was to do their job.

Was our problem
to make sure that you could pay them.

So you could pay them
to do their job. Yep.

And it was years later
before we sold that.

One of the employees who have been with us

for almost in the beginning
said to me, well, you just you know,

you're not is more easygoing
than you were a few years ago.

I say, well, yeah, because I was worried
that we weren't going to be surviving.

And so it was, it was
it was nice to hear that.

At least I wasn't.

As stressed as I was in the early years.

And, and they,
they sort of perceived that.

But it was important to Tim and I that we
didn't share all the, all the weakness.

Yeah.

Because it's not their problem.

No problem.

And that's a good a good attitude for it.

And creates a healthy work environment.

Which you guys were very focused on, like
your employees were so important to you?

You know, we
we always said we all we all needed a job.

We all needed to work.

But we can try to make it
as pleasant as possible.

There are some days where it was stressful
for everybody.

And of course, when things got really busy
and there were backlogs.

But,
you know, generally we tried to treat them

the way we treated everyone
in the way they wanted to be treated.

And so,

you know, we, we,

we ran a flat organization. Right.

Have a whole bunch of layers.

We didn't have a whole bunch of titles,
and that was by design.

And we just wanted everyone.

We wanted to empower
everyone to be able to do their job

so that they didn't need to come to
somebody else too.

Directions or feedback and,
and and that worked great for us.

It but when you go you're close
to 50 employees towards the end.

Right.

It was time to create an organization,
some structure, some structure.

And yeah, that was another reason.

We knew that it was time. Yeah.

That's that's we had left
the big corporate world decades earlier.

And so we didn't want to go back
to an organization

that was structured like that.

And, and, but it was needed.

And I and I know since the acquisition,

more is in place and it's

well to grow to the size
that they're projecting to grow now.

There's got to be a hierarchy.

Everybody cannot come to Cosmo.

No, you can probably have,
you know, the last year

that we were there,
we probably needed a little bit more.

We had,

but people get comfortable

with what they are in
and change is not easy.

And if we were pushing you
out of your comfort to exit,

then pushing you into a structure
at the same time could disrupt everything.

Right. Right.

Because we did we talked about it, right?

Should we should we be looking at a GM?

Should we get another
a management level in here?

And and should we promote people too?

Right. Right.

And and we, we all sort of collectively
agreed that it would be too artificial.

Would be. Yeah.

Forced.

And so
I don't think you had the right people,

like that wanted that.

And that's kind of an important decision.

You can't just.

I promote you and expect them to achieve.

Well, I promote you, but I don't really
want to be the person to train you.

Right?

You want this new, right?

So it's a self-help.

Correct. Setting it up for that.

So I'm glad that we didn't do that.

It was an easy decision. I mean, you guys.
Yeah, right there with us.

Yeah, absolutely.

Conversations
that it just didn't make sense.

Yeah.

Do anything
other than what we had done. Yeah.

And there were plenty of owners
that we work with that were like,

you know, he's actually
mostly in charge already.

We could change his title and his his
you know,

his optics are mostly that title.

Anyway.

But that just wasn't the case with you
guys.

You didn't have that.

We had just in in each of the functions.

We didn't have a general manager.

Right. So.

Yeah.

Yeah. That was.

It was clear to the organization,
I think. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah.

But the exit has been good
for the employees as well, right?

It has,
and we touch base with them occasionally.

And, a year and a half later,

everyone that I've talked to in the sense

that I get is that they're happy.

They continue to be treated fairly,

and they're given opportunities
as the organization grows.

There is opportunity for them.

And that's one of the things that
we talked about with the employees once.

It was widely known in the weeks
leading up to the to the transaction

that it would be different.

But there's the opportunity
in that. Right.

That's one of the positives
that could come out of it.

And it did.

So that I know that makes Tim
and I very happy.

That's good.

It's it's worked out
the way that it did good.

And we see often
what happened with you guys.

You guys were both given a board seat.

For the growth.

So what does that involvement look like?

I mean, it's obviously
not filling your day to day

because that's not the goal.

Our involvement now
is, is is solely as an investor.

Okay. Investor.

And we do attend
the quarterly board meetings.

And it's nice to get the information
and see where the things are going.

And occasionally maybe
there's a question or two that that will

Catherine or Patrick might reach out
to, to to get a quick answer.

But but other than that, you
that's that's our that's about it.

And it's it's
nice to see that it's continuing to grow.

Yeah.

From having created for our programs.

Yeah.

Almost 20 years ago to to being one
of the top distributors in the industry.

Is it makes us proud?

Absolutely.

When you have your commercial
running next to for imprints,

you'll be able to say,
I did that at least at the beginning.

Yeah. Yeah.

We came up with that name. Yeah. Yeah.

So excellent.

Excellent.

But yeah, but the,

you know, the organization
now is thriving.

It's got good management team that Patrick
at the helm is doing a terrific job.

Catherine who?

Yeah.

We brought in from Hadley.

Exactly the right person.

Good, good.

And and so I
and and the employees are echoing that.

Good, good, good.

Well, and we thought
that was very important when we met her.

And we met her during the diligence
process, which is a big help.

Doesn't always happen, but happens often
that you want to meet the

the kind of the person
that's going to take over and advance.

Yeah.

And I think we picked up on it right away.

She had that right balance. Yeah.

You know,

she certainly knew what she was doing
and was very confident, but she hadn't.

She had compassion. Right.

Part of the equation
in terms of the moving forward, how do you

and treating employees we talked about.

Compassion, understanding, empathy.

You know, being where their head is at
and when they're going through and,

and and accommodating that to this.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

What was the worst thing about diligence.

And you can't say me.

Yeah I won't say that.

They were just there.

Got to a point
where there were so many documents

and then versions of documents
that we couldn't keep.

We couldn't keep some of it
straight in terms of

where are we looking at the latest version
or is there a version after it that was.

Yeah.

And, just the volume of data

that got transferred for a company

that didn't have a lot of organization
in terms of the structure,

and we weren't really big on, holding
both meetings or having,

right, you know, documentation.

We certainly created a ton of it.

Yes. And,

and the questions just kept on coming.

They just they just didn't stop.

Yeah. Good question.

You questions.

But they just kept coming.

And then I the, towards the end
when we thought we were done, only

come to realize, you know, we had to do
the whole technical review, right?

I understand why they're doing it.

You know, no complaints there.

But, you know, you mentally said, okay,

we're done with diligence and surprise,
you're not.

Maybe talk through it.

That was one that was the,

disappointing in the moment.

But we did it and it was. Yeah. Yeah.

It was actually fairly painless
as technical goes.

Oh yes.

We've had worse.

I'm sure.

And I think the person on their end

Jake.

Did a good job.

He did was you know, he was professional
you know, and to the extent

he could be compassionate,
he was but he understood.

You know all the dynamics. Yeah. So

but diligence gets tricky.

How much to say when how much to show now.

What puts you at danger for overexposure.

And it's good
to kind of increase that gradually.

But I think that's right.

You know probably very good advice
because it

you have to get to know each other.

And and I don't think hardly ever did this
during the process.

You don't want to hold back

too much or hold back. Right.

And things that you're thinking of
and they certainly know are very open.

But I can see,

you're doing it steps.

Right because you've

become an overwhelming
if you've got if it happened towards.

Oh, yeah. A flood gate. Yeah. Yeah.

That.

So, Yeah, that that's.

Yeah.

Excellent. Well, we we're about done.

So I have one signature question for you.

If you had not done e-commerce
and you had not done for our promo,

and, you know, certainly
you had plenty of options

because you're a traditional finance pro
from back in the day.

So what else would you have done?

So, you know, my knee jerk answer
and I guess I can't give,

but I was 12 years old.

I wanted to be a professional
basketball player.

Oh, sure,
you're too slow and not coordinated.

So I gave up on that early on.

But I, you know, there

we always had parties at four of them,
sort of,

picnics and whatever, and there was.

And we always played trivia games
we made up.

And there was just one time,
many years ago, where,

the employees asked Tim and I a question,
and one of the questions was,

if you weren't in your position here
at For All from us, what position

would you want to be?
And so my answer was obvious.

I said, I want to be a graphic artist.

And I say that because

I'm always in awe of anyone

who can draw a beautiful picture,
sing a beautiful song.

Act any kind of

artistic flair to me
is because I'm so far from it.

I have no ability to do it at all,
but I'm always in awe of it.

So if I that come back again,
I want to have some artistic flair.

Okay.

So so website design is actually

a good a good hobby for you then.

That's why the theater. Exactly.

Website was good to get close enough to it
without doing any damage.

Yeah.

Not artistic myself, so I understand

the appreciation, but

I think that's my answer.

Good. That's an excellent hint.
Thank you for sharing.

Well,
thank you very much for your time today.

And it's always great to catch up.

And, Well, thank you.

I always enjoyed talking to you.

Thank you very much.
You're welcome. You're welcome.